Mindboards

PTP wrote: Hi there. So now we got one of those fine Intel IMacs and NXT-G v2.0 but it still seems difficult to get bluetooth to work properly. It connects and pairs with some trouble but everyting happens with incredibly long latency not at all working the way bluetooth used to work on our old G5. Tried on 2 other intel macs (Leopard and Snow Leopard) with similar result. Whats up, i thougt this version was intel compatible?
Well I can restart the Mac in Windows XP to get it working but thats not so smooth and, hey, bluetooth used to be working well on macs and difficult to cope with on a PC.
Any sugggestions other than ditching Mac OS

John Hansen wrote: From a discussion forum on apple:

By the way... Yesterday I went to an Apple Store and I discovered that the same issue was on a mac pro... so after 30 minutes doing whatever could be thought the guy from the AP deleted a file such like bluetooth.plist and after reboot bluetooth started working... Really I don't know if this could be a stable solution but this time it works

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jsp ... 5&tstart=0

Also check this:

http://support.apple.com/downloads/Blue ... date_2_0_1

http://www.apple.com/support/bluetooth/

PTP wrote: Thanks John!
Tried some new things and including deleting the Bluetooth.plist from the system library folder. I have the latest Bluetooth firmware uppdate installed.

Seems like its not a intel mac but a bluetooth hardware problem.
Got it workin perfect on an older intel mac with 0x8206 bluetooth hardware (edit: Cambridge Silicon Radio) directly on the internal USBbus but its still extremly laggy on the other Intel macs with 0x8216 (edit: Broadcom) bluetooth hardware on an extra internal BRCM2046 hub. It connects and pairs in slow motion, direct remote control activates the motors in 6 sek bursts with a visible diffrerece between activating motor B and C, a program that takes 2s to download on the older intel mac takes over 60s to download on the newer etc. Hope the folks at NI know about this.

If someone has the 0x8216 hardware (edit: Broadcom) and got i working anyway please reply.
What is your hardware version John? Tried your excellent mac tools utility and it too lagged on the newer macs probably due to its use of the lego driver for bluetooth communication?

/Ove

Andy D wrote: The Bluetooth problem on Intel Macs may be a problem with the NXT-G software.

I have the same lag problem when using Bluetooth with my Mac with 10.5.7 and NGX-G 1.1 and firmware 1.05 on my brick.

I originally thought it was a problem with my newer Intel iMac and MacBook and 10.5.7 because my old G5 iMac and iBook G4 running 10.4.11 work better in terms of communication between the NXT-G software and the NXT brick.

I recently purchased the iNXT remote (iPhone/iPod Touch App).

It communicates with the my iMac using WiFI and with the NXT using Bluetooth and it seems to work well.

I can use my iPod Touch as a remote controller for my NXT. The response time is almost instantaneous.

This has to go through the Mac's Bluetooth hardware, so maybe it is the way Lego is accessing the Bluetooth hardware.

Andy

John Hansen wrote: As PTP mentions, older Intel macs have no problem with lags when communicating with the NXT via Bluetooth using the LEGO Fantom framework. I suspect that a different bluetooth chipset is being used in the newest Intel macs that is causing problems with code written for the older chipset. It is likely that the problem is ultimately an issue in the Fantom framework but it may be caused by a hardware change in the latest round of Intel macs. On Windows, for example, the Fantom drivers work well with certain bluetooth chipsets but not with others.

Make sure that you have the 1.05 Fantom framework (or newer) for Mac OS X installed. The latest versions are universal binaries whereas the 1.02 Fantom framework (that came with NXT 1.0) is a PPC binary.

http://mindstorms.lego.com/support/updates/

The first item on the above page.

John Hansen

John Hansen wrote: You might also want to try installing the latest version of NI-Visa, which is used by the LEGO Fantom Framework.

ftp://ftp.ni.com/support/softlib/visa/N ... -4.5.0.dmg

John Hansen

Andy D wrote: What is this? When I select the link I just download a file. When I backtrack the URL I get to the National Instruments Website.

What is NI-VISA?

Reply to your previous post:

The Mac's I am using are both 2009 versions. The 2009 iMac and the 2009 MacBook (white).

The NXT in the about box for the NXT-G the version is 1.1 and the Firmware is 1.05

When I check Frameworks under the About this Mac I see the Fantom framework is f1 with a modification date of 9/27/09

I decided to make sure that I had the latest from Lego (I even downloaded a fresh copy from your link) so I ran the install and now my Fantom framework is f1 with a modification date of 10/6/09

I notice I have a few differences in my Bluetooth:

Bluetooth software version yours = 2.1.8f2, mine = 2.1.6f8

I also just ran the Apple 2.0.1 Bluetooth update for systems using the Broadcom chipset and I got a message that my Bluetooth firmware is up-to-date.

Manufacturer yours = Cambridge Silicon, mine = Broadcom

Firmware version yours = 1965, mine = 180 (364) (Different firmware versions could be explained because of different manufacturers of Bluetooth chipsets.)

The HCI Version, HCI revision, LMP Version and LMP Subversion are also different between yours and mine.

I suspect that your statement about code written for older chipsets could be the source of the problem, but it seems to me that apple should make the software hooks behave the same no matter what manufacturer they use for various chipsets.

Now that we know all that, what can be done. It seems the only solution is for Lego to determine how their software interacts with the different Bluetooth chipsets and make changes there.

Andy

Linus wrote: I haven't googled it, but it's some sort of driver library or USB and/or device interface adapter framework (+ add more buzzwords if you like). As John said, the Fantom driver uses it. In the Fantom SDK and header files, you can sometimes find VISA error codes if something goes wrong with the connection.

So just install and try it, it might do something.

Another whole different thing to try: I know you can talk to the NXT via Bluetooth by using the rfcomm device on a Mac, just like with Linux. You can somehow get this virtual serial port (rfcomm1 or whatever), and then open this device just like a file in /dev/rfcomm, and read/write data. But this is probably not much help for you, since existing software like NXT-G doesn't use this way...

John Hansen wrote: My Mac mini has the Cambridge Silicon Radio chipset and I do not see any lag when talking to my NXT via Bluetooth using the Fantom framework. I also have NI-Visa 4.5 installed. In your list of Frameworks do you see one called Visa? If so, what version is it?

Version: f0
Last Modified: 10/7/09 12:46 AM
Get Info String: LEGO MINDSTORMS NXT Driver 1.1.1f0, Copyright © 2003-2007 National Instruments Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
Location: /Library/Frameworks/Fantom.framework
Private: No

Version: 4.5.0
Last Modified: 10/7/09 12:46 AM
Get Info String: NI-VISA Library 4.5.0f0, Copyright © 2003-2009 National Instruments Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
Location: /Library/Frameworks/VISA.framework
Private: No

In any case, it sounds like LEGO and NI need to investigate a software update of some kind to fix the behavior of Bluetooth on newer Intel Macs that use the Broadcom chipset.

John Hansen

Andy D wrote: My Frameworks as of today:

Fantom:

Version: f0
Last Modified: 10/6/09 3:27 PM
Get Info String: LEGO MINDSTORMS NXT Driver 1.1.1f0, Copyright © 2003-2007 National Instruments Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
Location: /Library/Frameworks/Fantom.framework
Private: No

I assume this VISAs installed with Fantom driver above.

VISA:

Version: f0
Last Modified: 10/6/09 3:27 PM
Get Info String: NI-VISA Library 4.1.1f0, Copyright © 2003-2007 National Instruments Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
Location: /Library/Frameworks/VISA.framework
Private: No

I was finally able to download the VISA 4.5 (kept o timing out)

Installed today, no change in Bluetooth response.

VISA:

Version: 4.5.0
Last Modified: 10/7/09 7:57 AM
Get Info String: NI-VISA Library 4.5.0f0, Copyright © 2003-2009 National Instruments Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
Location: /Library/Frameworks/VISA.framework
Private: No

John, I believe you are correct in your above statement: "In any case, it sounds like LEGO and NI need to investigate a software update of some kind to fix the behavior of Bluetooth on newer Intel Macs that use the Broadcom chipset."

Do you know anyone at Lego?

For some reason I never noticed the 2 pinned topics in this forum:

NXT-G bugs

NXT 2.0 Wishlist features

Seems that fixing the Bluetooth for late model Intel Mac's could show up in either or both of these. I also hope that someone with connections to Lego can take some of these items forward.

Andy

PTP wrote: Yes I can verify your findings. The intel mac that works has a Cambridge Silicon Radio and the ones that does not has Broadcom chips. The irony here is that the Broadcom based macs can cope with mindstorms NXT over bluetooth when booted from Windows XP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
/PTP

Can anyone forward the problem to Lego/NI, the are probably not aware of it as it was not fixed in NXT-G 2.0?

3qfisch wrote: Hi
i have the same problem with my New Macbook Pro Alu 15" snowleopard
if i conect the bluetooth the Lego-g is lagging
and the funny thing is that if i run a virtual winXP on VMWareFusion and use there Bluetooth with nxt-g all work's well
any solutions for this problem?
thx
Alex

Caz1 wrote: I have the same problem - I use an iMac with OS 10.5.8 and I just purchased the new Mindstorm 2.0. The USB connection works well, but the BlueTooth is not usable. I can establish a BlueTooth connection between the NXT-brick and the NXT-G(iMax), but the BlueTooth slows down the NXT-G to crawl - again, to the point of making it not usable.

I have yet to find a solution to this on any of the forums - I am new to this still - I got the Mindstorm for my son for Christmas.

Do any of you have suggestions for how to contact LEGO and make them aware of this problem? Or has this been done by members of this forum already?

It is frustrating that LEGO is not more proactive.

Thanks for the help - this forum is useful.

JSN wrote: I'm having the same problem with a new Intel Mac Mini (unusably slow bluetooth). Quite frustrating - has anyone found a solution?

John Hansen wrote: At the moment the solution is that you can buy a cheap CSR-based radio (usb dongle) and use it instead of the built-in Broadcomm-based radio. You should be able to find one that works for under $5.

There are strong reasons to expect that LEGO and NI are feverishly working on a fix for this problem but there's not much to say other than wait patiently with your fingers crossed. It would be nice to have a public statement from LEGO stating that they are aware of the problem and are working on it. Or for a fix to show up without warning!

John Hansen

sebsto wrote: Lego is aware of the issue and is working on a fix

http://mindstorms.lego.com/en-us/bluetooth/default.aspx

Seb

John Hansen wrote: The latest version of the Fantom driver is supposed to improve things a lot when it comes to new Mac's that use the broadcom chipset.

http://mindstorms.lego.com/en-us/suppor ... spx#Driver

Click Fantom Driver then download and you should get this link for PC:

http://cache.lego.com/upload/contentTem ... 7C537F.zip

or this link for Mac:

http://cache.lego.com/upload/contentTem ... 5DA785.zip

John Hansen

DracoBricks wrote: Hello!

I have found many useful info here when i had any trouble, now, I want to add some more help.

I've been working with LeJOS (0.85)/NXT-G over bluetooth with my macbook for a while and manage to make it work fine, if you still have any problem connecting your NXT to your Mac, try this step by step guide, in both, English and Spanish, I write for the electricBricks blog.

Connect NXT to MAC using Bluetooth

Hope you find it useful

Thanks!

afanofosc wrote:You no longer need to use nxtcom to download programs to your NXT. You can use the NBC compiler itself. The nxtcom utility does not use the Fantom drivers and it does not use the nxt.dat file. If you want to compile and download a program you can use

nbc -S=BT -d FirstProgram.nxc

If you have already compiled to a .rxe file then you can use

nbc -S=BT -d -b FirstProgram.rxe

The -b switch tells the compiler that the file is binary and that it does not need to be compiled before downloading it to the NXT.

John Hansen

lizard381 wrote:I have a strange problem. I'm using a mid 2010 Macbook Pro, Mac OSX 10.6.7, Snow Leopard. I can connect to the NXT over Bluetooth from NeXT Tools and from the Apple Bluetooth Explorer, but when I try to connect using the Fantom Library, I get the following dialog box:

ScreenshotBluetoothDialog-low.jpg

The problem is I'm not able to select NXT, it just stays there with the Select button grayed out. Has anyone had a similar experience? I called Lego tech support and they said it was because it's one of the new Macbooks with an incompatible bluetooth chipset, but after hanging up I realised that this doesn't make sense since NeXT Tools can connect...

Kami

tcwan wrote:I see the dialog box as well, but I can select the NXT on my Mac.
Interestingly NeXT Tool does not bring up the dialog. I'm trying to understand why there is a difference.

You might want to check the Bluetooth connection pairing is done correctly. There should be a serial port with Dev-B Modem Service serial port configured.

lizard381 wrote:

tcwan wrote:I see the dialog box as well, but I can select the NXT on my Mac.
Interestingly NeXT Tool does not bring up the dialog. I'm trying to understand why there is a difference.

You might want to check the Bluetooth connection pairing is done correctly. There should be a serial port with Dev-B Modem Service serial port configured.

I've checked, I do have that setting configured. I would also like to know why NeXT Tool does not bring up the dialog. What model do you have for your Mac (year,make) and what version of OSX?